Micro Air Easy Start With 2000 Watt Inverter

Topic: microair easy start results

Posted By: ktmrfs on 04/30/17 09:43pm Well, here is a summary of the microair easy start on my coleman MachIII 13.5KBTU AC.

First, the current results before installation. I had the supco soft start cap along with a 10 second time delay on the fan start.

Measured Peak current required to start is 60A,

Results with a single honda 2000
At low altitude, lower temps, with everything else off in the trailer, and the honda eco start OFF.
If I was lucky, the honda would struggle and start the AC, but note something to count on. The honda really struggled. above about 1000Ft or above about 85F, SOL, no way would it start the AC.

With honda 2000 in parallel,
If both had the eco throttle on, usually the honda voltage would drop low enough to have the Progessive Industries EMS relay chatter, even with the PI in bypass mode, voltage was dropping way low,
If one was off eco throttle, then it would start the AC without issues.

So, here is data after the easy start install. Which by the way was pretty straightforward, good instructions. And the easy start removes any start cap on the AC unit, but there IS a start cap INSIDE the easy start, along with the control board.

starting current on a 30A service using the 5 starts recomended before using a generator

No easy start 60A
easy start 1 27.6A
easy start 2 21.5A
easy start 3 22.4A
easy start 4 25.3A
easy start 5 25.0A

now, connected to a honda 2000 in eco mode,
no load honda Voltage 126V RMS
starting voltage sag 116V RMS
running voltage 123V RMS
peak starting current 22.0A

and the generator ramped up the rpm as it started, no overshoot in rpm, start was smooth.

So, IMHO success. We shall see when it hits 90F and 4,000 Ft to see if it will still start in eco mode, but I suspect it definitely will start fine with eco mode off.

Now, all that said, if you want to run the AC and much else you still will be out of luck. the easy start doesn't defy the laws of physics, so running current is still the same, so not much headroom left. But if you run honda's in parallel, running them in eco mode should work just fine.

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Posted By: RSD559 on 04/30/17 11:45pm Thank you for the effort and the post. We're looking at the Easy Start kit for our annual week long reunion at Lake Siskiyou in Northern California. They've been replacing the 30 amp plugs in our campground loop with 20 amp plugs. Don't know if our spot is downgraded yet. They want to get the loop back to small trailers and tent trailers. And force the big RVs to go to the full hookup sights. But the loop is perfect for our big family. Our new trailer has a 15k btu A/C unit, so I don't know if there is any hope. But, from what I've read about the Easy Start, it will help your A/C be less harsh on itself, it that makes any sense. So it will be a good investment.

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Posted By: pianotuna on 05/01/17 06:33am Hi Kt,

Thanks for the information. I've ordered a unit. I'm hoping that with the kit the Magnum inverter will not display the red overload light.

Regards, Don
My ride is a 28 foot Class C, 256 watts solar, 556 amp-hours of Telcom jars, 3000 watt Magnum hybrid inverter, Sola Basic Autoformer, Microair Easy Start.

Posted By: ktmrfs on 05/01/17 09:54pm

pianotuna wrote:

Hi Kt,

Thanks for the information. I've ordered a unit. I'm hoping that with the kit the Magnum inverter will not display the red overload light.

let us know how it turns out. I think you have a good chance. If possible see if you can find a time delay for the fan. I had an agastat time delay, but I believe it has been discontinued. It allows anything from 0.5 seconds to 10 seconds of delay, hooks into the 12V control line for the fan, and is adjustable by a resistor. 1Mohm gives 10 seconds.

Posted By: time2roll on 05/01/17 10:20pm My agastat is sitting on the shelf since I went Dometic digital.
If you need it and are going to actually use it let me know.

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Posted By: pianotuna on 05/01/17 11:47pm Hi,

I believe the Micro Air does a time delay already?

Posted By: MEXICOWANDERER on 05/02/17 12:52am Even though both the generator and air conditioning are way out of my line of expertise, may I offer my praise at a fine piece of documentation. Not only displays your results but the efficacy of the concept. [emoticon]

Posted By: pnichols on 05/02/17 01:46am What his excellent report also shows is what an outstanding piece of engineering the Microair Easy Start represents.

Way to go .... both ktmrfs and Micro Air Corp.!!!!

Now ... combine the Micro Air Easy Start with one of the new high efficiency 13.5K RV rooftop air conditioners ... and a single little Honda 2000i just might really shine at any temperature and altitude with Eco mode off or maybe on.

Posted By: Bobbo on 05/02/17 08:05am Just bought a TT. We have not yet decided whether to buy a generator or not. If we do, I will order the EasyStart that I have bookmarked in my browser.

BTW, the EastStart video says it has a 5 second delay. When the fan starts, the EasyStart delays 5 seconds before letting the compressor begin to start.

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Posted By: time2roll on 05/02/17 08:31am

Bobbo wrote:

BTW, the EastStart video says it has a 5 second delay. When the fan starts, the EasyStart delays 5 seconds before letting the compressor begin to start.

I have never understood why the fan should start before the compressor. At home the compressor starts first.

Maybe the fan will get the generator off idle and ready to ramp up the throttle.

Posted By: otrfun on 05/02/17 08:49am ktmrfs, thank you for your helpful and informative post. Not many take the time to test and document inrush (startup) current like you have. It's obvious from your inrush current measurements the MicroAir Easy Start is working as advertised. Thanks again.

Posted By: ktmrfs on 05/02/17 09:10am

time2roll wrote:

Bobbo wrote:

BTW, the EastStart video says it has a 5 second delay. When the fan starts, the EasyStart delays 5 seconds before letting the compressor begin to start.

I have never understood why the fan should start before the compressor. At home the compressor starts first.

Maybe the fan will get the generator off idle and ready to ramp up the throttle.

that's the easy start reasoning. However, my reasoning is different. I'd rather not have the extra few amps draw as the compressor tries to start given the honda's marginal surge capability for this application. So I changed my agastat delay to 10 seconds, lets the compressor get going, then the honda is rev'd up and then the fan starts.

so far it doesn't show any issue starting compressor first.

either way probably is ok. the big thing is that in neither case does the compressor and fan try to start at the same time. the fan in mine has a start cap, but there is still an inrush load above normal running load, and staggering them is the best thing to do.

Posted By: ktmrfs on 05/02/17 09:20am

pnichols wrote:

What his excellent report also shows is what an outstanding piece of engineering the Microair Easy Start represents.

Way to go .... both ktmrfs and Micro Air Corp.!!!!

yes that would be ideal. the new energy efficient ones draw around 10A which is similar to the polar cub on my smaller trailer.

Now another comparison I can describe. my smaller trailer has a coleman power cub, 9,000BTU AC. it is much lower starting current and the honda 2000 will start and run it at 6,000ft plus on hot days.

But if I compare subjective starting to the MachIII with easy start, the MachIII and easy start presents a lower initial load to the honda. If in eco mode the polar cub will cause the honda to immediately reve to full throttle and the rpm will vary for a few seconds before settling down as it gets over the inrush load.

with the MachIII and easy start, the honda rev's up to final rpm without any fuss in one smooth rev cycle.

so IMHO the easy start would be a must have for me on even the newer high efficiency AC units, and I may install one on the polar cub as well. I just need to make sure there is a spot to mount the easy start box.

Posted By: Micro-Air on 05/05/17 05:16am

ktmrfs wrote:

Well, here is a summary of the microair easy start on my coleman MachIII 13.5KBTU AC...

...So, IMHO success. We shall see when it hits 90F and 4,000 Ft to see if it will still start in eco mode, but I suspect it definitely will start fine with eco mode off.

Outstanding report, ktmrfs! Thank you very much for documenting your success story. You obviously used a current ammeter that did a descent job of capturing the start-up surge. If you subtract out the fan amps for your Coleman (~3A), the compressor went from 57A (=60-3) to 19A (22-3), which is actually better than what I measured on that old Coleman in the YouTube video. You got 66% reduction then, which is great. BTW, with some recent Dometic models, we're seeing starting surge reduction percentages into the 70s, which is quite impressive even to us.

Regarding altitude and the Honda EU2000i, we recently worked with 2 different customers who did run into some trouble. Turns out, up to about 3000, all seems okay with the Honda EU2000i. However, we had one customer at 4600' and another at 5300', and they both needed to install the high-altitude carburetor jet kit to get the Honda to keep running after the startup was over with. This was because the running amps were in between Honda's '1600W rated amp spec and their 2000W maximum amp spec. We all know that that the Honda will maintain 2000W just fine without declaring overloads up to 16.7A (2000W). However, the customer at 5300' only had 15A of steady-state draw after the compressor start-up was long over with, and the Honda's output voltage rapidly collapsed after it went just a little over 15A as the compressor warmed up (in 3 to 5 minutes). When this voltage collapse happened, the compressor stalled, and the EasyStart detected this and shut it down immediately. Note that since the output current of the Honda was less than its overload limit (167A), the Honda did not indicate any sort of "problem" per se, during this voltage collapse. This is just how these inverter generators work. If the engine and alternator cannot keep the internal DC Bus (capacitor bank) charged adequate as the inverter section is taking energy away (to drive the output AC waveform), then the DC bus voltage gets drained and the inverter has less voltage to work with. The good news is after this customer at 5300' installed the high-altitude kit, all worked well.

pianotuna wrote:

I believe the Micro Air does a time delay already?

Bobbo wrote:

BTW, the EastStart video says it has a 5 second delay. When the fan starts, the EasyStart delays 5 seconds before letting the compressor begin to start.

time2roll wrote:

Bobbo wrote:

BTW, the EastStart video says it has a 5 second delay. When the fan starts, the EasyStart delays 5 seconds before letting the compressor begin to start.

I have never understood why the fan should start before the compressor. At home the compressor starts first.

Maybe the fan will get the generator off idle and ready to ramp up the throttle.

All great questions, gentlemen, and you're all correct, but I have more to add. Back last June when I made the YouTube video, we only had that black-enclosure EasyStart 364 which provided only a 5-second delay. Now, our newest beige, IP65 (fully weatherproof) enclosure model has a new circuit board inside that provides one extra feature. It has an "intelligent" short cycle prevention timer that keeps track of how much time has elapsed since the last time the compressor was running. It will prevent a restart from occurring for a minimum of 5 minutes, and it will keep track of the elapsed time even when power is completely removed (that's the intelligent part). For example, if your A/C's thermostat turns off, and then turns back on again in 3 minutes, the EasyStart will only wait an additional 2 minutes before restarting the compressor. The same is true if AC power was completely removed from your trailer, and then comes back again in less than 5 minutes. Of course, if the elapsed time is greater than 5 minutes, the EasyStart will only wait its usual 5 seconds before smoothly and quietly ramping up the compressor.

During the time that the compressor is off, your system's fan will be running, but you won't be getting any cold air. This is normal and often even happens even with some digital thermostats that show an hour glass icon indicating it is waiting too start the cooling cycle.

Speaking of the fan starting first, we do know that this helps the Honda respond in ECO mode and be at a higher output level by the time the compressor was started (5 seconds later). It does certainly help, but the Honda is actually smarter than that. We later found that the Honda will control its engine throttle dynamically and it does set it to several "in between" points for various output current levels. So, with the fan on by itself, that's only ~3A. The Honda does increase the engine throttle, but only to a point. The key to the success with EasyStart is that the compressor starting ramp is obviously extended to about 1 second, and the Honda's response time in ECO mode can closely track it and its reserve capacity in its DC bus capacitor bank can source the required surge current as well. The Honda is quite the exceptional machine, and all of the other manufacturers had to play catch-up, or are still in the process of doing so.

------

Thank you again for everyone's support! I'm here to help et me know if you have any further questions. I am attending the Oliver Travel Trailer factory rally in Hohenwald, Tennessee over the next 2 days, so I may be a bit slow in responding.

Technical Support
Micro-Air, Inc.

Posted By: pianotuna on 05/05/17 06:58am Hi thanks for the answers!

When training the Micro-Air, would it be wise to use an autoformer to support the voltage? Or does the unit want to see voltage sag?

Is there an "ideal" voltage to train at?

Does the new 5 minute delay mean that I can "train" by switching off the air conditioner and then turning it back on in 30 seconds?

Do you have any information on using the Micro-Air with hybrid inverter/chargers such as the Magnum 3012 which are equipped with a "load support" (not voltage support) feature? I.E. do they "play well together"?

Micro-Air wrote:

Thank you again for everyone's support! I'm here to help et me know if you have any further questions. I am attending the Oliver Travel Trailer factory rally in Hohenwald, Tennessee over the next 2 days, so I may be a bit slow in responding.

Posted By: road-runner on 05/05/17 12:08pm

Micro-Air wrote:

We all know that that the Honda will maintain 2000W just fine without declaring overloads up to 16.7A (2000W).

I'm sorry, some of "we" know different. My eu2000i tops out a bit over 1900VA even at sea level, and if you'd been following eu2000i forum posts for the past 10 years you'd have found multiple similar reports. At 3,000 feet, mine will barely hold 1600VA after it gets hot. Put a big load on it on a 90+ degree day and it will produce 1800VA or so for a few minutes, then it tapers down to 1600. Maybe you have an eu2000i that randomly has "pick of the litter" components and will produce 2000VA. With the air conditioner's non-unity power factor, you're not getting 2000 watts when the generator is producing 2000VA.

Following this thread is kind of amusing. Five years ago there was a group reporting success running a 13.5 air conditioner with the eu2000i. They were bombarded with predictions of doom that the generator and air conditioner would be ruined (from long-term running, not from starting). Now the consensus seems to be that it's perfectly ok. Reminds me of things like a few years ago eating eggs would kill you, and today it's ok.

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Posted By: SoundGuy on 05/05/17 12:22pm

Micro-Air wrote:

Regarding altitude and the Honda EU2000i, we recently worked with 2 different customers who did run into some trouble. Turns out, up to about 3000, all seems okay with the Honda EU2000i. However, we had one customer at 4600' and another at 5300', and they both needed to install the high-altitude carburetor jet kit to get the Honda to keep running after the startup was over with.

NO aftermarket product, Micro-Air Easy Start or any similar device, should be expected to compensate for incorrect jetting. [emoticon] This EU2000i Technical Bulletin makes it quite clear that Honda considers the stock #62 jet suitable only for use up to 5000', between 5000' and 10,000' the next smaller #60 should be used, above 10,000' a #58. For any results to be conclusive one would have to know for a fact that the EU2000i in question was in proper operating condition, not just a unit of "some" age with unknown numbers of hours on it and no known regular maintenance that may or may not have met the manufacturer's specifications.

Posted By: ewarnerusa on 05/05/17 01:25pm Following.
I bought a Micro Air this spring that I'll be installing sometime soon. We have a Yamaha 2400 inverter gen that is not currently up to the task of running the AC when it is hot and we are camping up high. We live at around 4000' elevation and regularly camp above 6000'.

Posted By: SoundGuy on 05/05/17 02:53pm

ewarnerusa wrote:

I bought a Micro Air this spring that I'll be installing sometime soon. We have a Yamaha 2400 inverter gen that is not currently up to the task of running the AC when it is hot and we are camping up high. We live at around 4000' elevation and regularly camp above 6000'.

According to info in this rv.net discussion your EF2400iS would benefit by switching out the stock jet which is rated to just 4500' to the next smaller size rated for 4500' to 8000'. Micro-Air seems is on to something here but it's not designed to compensate for incorrect jetting.

Posted By: jharrell on 05/05/17 05:52pm

pianotuna wrote:

Hi Kt,

Thanks for the information. I've ordered a unit. I'm hoping that with the kit the Magnum inverter will not display the red overload light.

It will resolve the overload. With the Easy start my Magnum 3000 will start and run my 15k btu Coleman on two Lifeline GPL-4CTs for about 30-45 minutes.

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Posted By: pianotuna on 05/05/17 08:18pm Hi jharrell,

Music to my ears!

Any idea of the wattage draw on your 15k btu unit?

Thanks.

jharrell wrote:

pianotuna wrote:

Hi Kt,

Thanks for the information. I've ordered a unit. I'm hoping that with the kit the Magnum inverter will not display the red overload light.

It will resolve the overload. With the Easy start my Magnum 3000 will start and run my 15k btu Coleman on two Lifeline GPL-4CTs for about 30-45 minutes.

* This post was edited 05/06/17 11:53am by pianotuna *

Posted By: Chinolbz on 05/05/17 11:30pm A couple of years age I was looking at Yamaha Gensets and e-mailed Yamaha to ask about high-altitude jets. The Tech that responded had no idea why I would want such an item! I bought a Honda and bought jets at my local Dealer. Of course I am one of very few that would take the time to swap-out jets. Chino

Posted By: MEXICOWANDERER on 05/05/17 11:42pm With a puff of black smoke my Kubota pushes 150% power with a kubota part # 16881-17010 turbo kit. A Mitsubishi made part. I personally found engine ignition timing to be far more effective than re-jetting but maybe that's me [emoticon]

Posted By: pianotuna on 05/06/17 12:09am Does the Micro Air do power factor correction?

Posted By: Micro-Air on 05/06/17 04:28am

pianotuna wrote:

When training the Micro-Air, would it be wise to use an autoformer to support the voltage? Or does the unit want to see voltage sag?

Is there an "ideal" voltage to train at?

Does the new 5 minute delay mean that I can "train" by switching off the air conditioner and then turning it back on in 30 seconds?

Do you have any information on using the Micro-Air with hybrid inverter/chargers such as the Magnum 3012 which are equipped with a "load support" (not voltage

support) feature? I.E. do they "play well together"?

pianotuna wrote:

Any idea of the wattage draw on your 15k btu unit?

pianotuna wrote:

Does the Micro Air do power factor correction?

1)The reason we recommend that the 5-start learning process be done on utility power is because it is preferred that the voltage not sag during the learning starts. In this way the critical measurements that the EasyStart is doing (and remembering) during each start are consistent, repeatable, and valid when compared.

2) During learning, the voltage should be at least 110V, but more importantly as stated above, it should be a reasonably consistent voltage that stays within +/-5V,if possible. Once learning is complete, EasyStart will tolerate voltage variation that is extreme, even down past the point where any compressor would be stalled out.

3) The built-in short-cycle prevention timer does allow you to let the EasyStart control the delay and set the pace during back-to-back restarts.

4) We have dozens of customers who have used the EasyStart on many models of Magnum inverter. We own a Magnum 2812 at Micro-Air (which is less wattage than the MSH3012, and is not a hybrid type), and have done extensive testing with even 18k marine units starting and running with success using the EasyStart. Solar/inverter RV refit companies use our EasyStart all the time so they can start and run A/C units even on 2000W inverters, both standard and hybrids (with load support).

5) The wattage of a 15kBTU rooftop varies between manufacturers. We own a 15k Dometic Penguin II and it has an RLA of 15.5A (fan + compressor), but we typically measure it as drawing in the 14.5-15.0A range.

6) The EasyStart does not do any power factor correction for the compressor. Once the start-up is over with, the EasyStart switches out its solid-state electronics with an internal power relay, and restores the compressor configuration to normal. The EasyStart of course continues monitoring the compressor during steady-state running for the various fault conditions it detects.

Posted By: pianotuna on 05/06/17 11:58am Hi,

If I add power factor correction to the air conditioner will it "play well" with the EasyStart?

Micro-Air wrote:

Posted By: jharrell on 05/06/17 01:40pm

pianotuna wrote:

Hi jharrell,

Music to my ears!

Any idea of the wattage draw on your 15k btu unit?

Thanks.

Depends on outside temperature, I have seen it pull up to 1600W but right now it's just pulling 1300W since its in the mid 70's outside.

The Magnum hybrid is interesting with solar and A/C running off it, right now my 320w of solar is putting out 225w and the Magnum is in Load Support VDC lowering the shore draw by about 2A so its only pulling 11A from the grid. Makes me want more solar!

Before the easy start the Magnum would complain with a overload randomly on A/C start and shutdown even when plugged into shore. Pretty sure the LRA of the compressor was dropping the line voltage below disconnect threshold, then the inverter would disconnect shore and try and start the compressor on its own going into overload. I had disconnect voltage dropped all the way to 60V still did it, Magnum only needs one cycle below 60V to trip. This is a a bug in my mind, but Magnum disagreed.

Anyway Easy-Start solved it and allowed me to start and run the A/C completely off battery if I want. IMO all RV A/C should have an integrated Easy-start from the factory, so much easier on everything. Actually R/V A/C's should be efficient inverter based compressors like a modern mini-split.

Posted By: time2roll on 05/06/17 02:02pm Does Easy Start continue to learn each time or is it just fixed once the initial starts are complete?
Can the learning take place with normal cycling or is it better to manually cycle the equipment?
If my thermostat is set to "fan on" and just the compressor cycles how will that affect the learning and operation of the Easy Start?

Thanks again to the OP for posting data and thanks to the ES rep for posting real answers to the technical questions.

Posted By: jharrell on 05/06/17 02:43pm

time2roll wrote:

If my thermostat is set to "fan on" and just the compressor cycles how will that affect the learning and operation of the Easy Start?

Far as I know the Easy-Start has no knowledge of the fan, it only connects to the compressor. It simply has a few second start delay, so as soon as thermostat calls for cooling and turns on the fan and compressor relay's the fan starts immediately and the the Easy-Start ramps up after a few seconds, spreading out the fan and compressor startup which also helps with the startup surge beyond what the Easy-start is doing for the compressor.

Posted By: road-runner on 05/06/17 02:54pm

pianotuna wrote:

Hi,

If I add power factor correction to the air conditioner will it "play well" with the EasyStart?

Is there a device for that? The run capacitor is of course doing static PFC, but since the power factor changes with the voltage, waveform, and motor load the effectiveness of the correction varies. I suppose it's technologically possible to do active PFC on a load as large as an air conditioner. I've never see such a device, which of course doesn't mean it doesn't exist. When I've measured the power factor of a Dometic 13.5 unit under varying conditions, the worst power factor I observed was 0.93, not too shabby. An active device would have to introduce some power-stealing overhead and/or efficiency loss, so I'd question if in this case it could provide enough of a net improvement to be worth it. Maybe other air conditioners have a worse PF. I looked only one time.

Posted By: pianotuna on 05/06/17 04:58pm Hi jharrell,

You may be interested in my autoformer thread. Find it here:

Sola Basic autoformer test

Where on the ARC remote do I find disconnect voltage?

I agree about RV's including the Easy Start or some similar product. But then, they would have to spend a nickle more (can't say pennies in Canada any more--the don't exist).

jharrell wrote:

I had disconnect voltage dropped all the way to 60V still did it, Magnum only needs one cycle below 60V to trip. This is a a bug in my mind, but Magnum disagreed.

Posted By: pianotuna on 05/06/17 05:09pm Hi time2roll,

Nope it learns on the first five starts only. If you move the unit to another air conditioner there is a way to have it learn the new one.

Their detailed reply to me above indicated that the new unit (i.e. not black) would do the learning inclusive of the 5 minute delay. Their web site specifies a 4 minute delay--but that could be a typo.

Can't answer the "fan on" but I think the idea is to maximize the surge and minimize the voltage drop during the learning process.

time2roll wrote:

Does Easy Start continue to learn each time or is it just fixed once the initial starts are complete?
Can the learning take place with normal cycling or is it better to manually cycle the equipment?
If my thermostat is set to "fan on" and just the compressor cycles how will that affect the learning and operation of the Easy Start?

Thanks again to the OP for posting data and thanks to the ES rep for posting real answers to the technical questions.

Posted By: pianotuna on 05/06/17 05:13pm Hi road-runner,

I was told a simple capacitor could be used to correct the power factor on my autoformer thread. But I would not want to mess up the Micro Air.

road-runner wrote:

pianotuna wrote:

Hi,

If I add power factor correction to the air conditioner will it "play well" with the EasyStart?

Posted By: jharrell on 05/06/17 05:16pm

pianotuna wrote:

Hi jharrell,

You may be interested in my autoformer thread. Find it here:

Where on the ARC remote do I find disconnect voltage?

I agree about RV's including the Easy Start or some similar product. But then, they would have to spend a nickle more (can't say pennies in Canada any more--the don't exist).

Not sure if a Autoformer would do any good, it is just a extremely quick voltage drop due to compressor drawing huge start amps, not sure the Autoformer would even respond quick enough.

Edit: Just read the thread, look like you ran into the same issue, I really think the Magnum is too sensistive.

My Surgeguard which disconnects at 102V to protect things never even saw it, the Magnum is UPS grade with 16ms (one cycle) switch over but too sensitive when you have A/C on the circuit. Would be nice if magnum let you adjust the sensitively beyond 60V more like how many cycles at X volts or something.

The setting is under Setup->Charger Settings->VAC Dropout. Page 25 in the manual has a detailed explanation.

* This post was edited 05/06/17 05:42pm by jharrell *

Posted By: pianotuna on 05/06/17 07:15pm Hi,

Thanks for the help. Mine was set to 80 vac for the drop out. I've moved it to 60.

I do know that on a 30 amp connection with the Magnum set to 24 amps, that the autoformer reacts fast enough to cut in before the compressor motor gets up to full speed. But that's no match for 1/60 of a second.

jharrell wrote:

Not sure if a Autoformer would do any good, it is just a extremely quick voltage drop due to compressor drawing huge start amps, not sure the Autoformer would even respond quick enough.

Edit: Just read the thread, look like you ran into the same issue, I really think the Magnum is too sensistive.

The setting is under Setup->Charger Settings->VAC Dropout. Page 25 in the manual has a detailed explanation.

Posted By: pnichols on 05/06/17 07:47pm Just as a sidenote ... I always scratch my head wondering about "why Honda requies jet changes for optimizing it's performance at high altitudes, while an Onan generator has an ultra-convenient knob you turn for optimizing it's performance at high altitudes?".

I must be missing something here: Does Honda need to do it more right in their portable inverter generators and design in a twist knob for fuel-air mixture adjustments ... or is Onan kidding us in that we're really not doing anything when we turn a knob to change fuel-air mixture in their built-in constant RPM generators? [emoticon]

Posted By: Micro-Air on 05/07/17 08:08pm

pianotuna wrote:

If I add power factor correction to the air conditioner will it "play well" with the EasyStart?

As you mentioned in your exchange with road-runner, power factor correction is merely a capacitor added to compensate for the inductance of motors or an autoformer in your case. This won't affect the EasyStart's operation since it is completely outside of its circuit and that of the air conditioner itself.

Hello time2roll. To add to what jharrell and pianotuna contributed for you, the EasyStart does not continue to learn after the first 5 starts are completed. This is one of its big advantages. Next, you can allow the EasyStart to conducts its learning with normal cycling, providing you know you completed all 5 starts before you start moving back and forth between generator and utility. The only reason we recommend manually cycling and waiting around for the 5 minutes for each trial is to make sure they all get completed. Depending on the weather, your A/C could run all night in one, very long, single cycle. Lastly, you can set the A/C's thermostat to "Fan On" instead of "Fan Auto", and that will not affect the learning of the EasyStart. Typically, depending on the manufacturer and the model of the A/C's control, the fan is already running first before the compressor starts anyway. When powered from an adequate utility source, the EasyStart and its learning is not affected by any of the current going to the fan. However, when powered from a generator, the fan will obviously consume some of the generator's capacity (typically 3A for 1 fan motor with Dometic models, or for 2 fan motors with Coleman models) before the compressor is started. Thus this is one of the reasons for doing the learning on utility so that each starting trial can be better compared to each other without any variability introduced by the fan's affect on the the power source.

Posted By: exploringcarolina on 06/02/17 08:07am Completed installation of the Microair Easy Start 364 on a Dometic Penguin II 13.5K unit yesterday. After 5 start ups on shore power, tried AC operation with a Honda EU2000i, Eco mode off. The AC started & ran smoothly with outside temps at 86F at 900MSL.

Matteo at Microair, is great to work with, too.

Bill
Oliver Elite II
5.7L Tundra 4X4

Posted By: pianotuna on 06/02/17 11:19am Hi,

My Easy Start is installed and working well. However the installation documentation that comes with it leaves a lot to be desired. I.E. multiple circuit diagrams--and no model number on the Microair Easy Start case. I finally used the wiring diagram that is on the Easy Start.

My ac is a Dometic 13500 btu unit from 2005. The fan only on low draws 227 watts and on high 257 watts. Voltage was 116. Power source is one leg of a 50 amp outlet and I'm the only person on the circuit. Routing is through the Magnum inverter/charger (3012 Hybrid) with load support not enabled. Shore power is limited to 30 amps (my choice) and the cord to the RV is two 25 foot 30 amp RV cords. There is also a Sola Basic autoformer for voltage support.

When running the AC in cooling mode, voltage drops to 108, and wattage is 1526 measured by an Elite watt meter. The battery bank is fully charged.

I have the temperature set at 23.8 C (74.8 f) for cut in. Ambient temperature is 24.2 c (75.6 f).

If I run on the Magnum inverter. I get 2 "blips" where the red "fault" led comes on, one when the fan starts, and about 1 second later when the compressor starts. The Magnum is terribly "finicky" about voltage drop measuring it in the very first sine wave cycle. Before the Microair unit the red fault light would stay on longer. I was hoping the Easy Start would eliminate the fault light entirely, but I guess the Magnum is faster than the ES.

Posted By: pianotuna on 06/02/17 11:22am Hi,

Any chance of a test with the eco mode *on*?

exploringcarolina wrote:

Completed installation of the Microair Easy Start 364 on a Dometic Penguin II 13.5K unit yesterday. After 5 start ups on shore power, tried AC operation with a Honda EU2000i, Eco mode off. The AC started & ran smoothly with outside temps at 86F at 900MSL.

Posted By: ewarnerusa on 06/05/17 04:23pm I installed my Micro Air this weekend. Weather was nice and hot when I finished and fired up the air con, then burly thunderstorms rolled in and the temp dropped 20F. So I didn't get my training cycles in. I left the air con at a relatively low setpoint today and hopefully it made it through its cycles. Since I don't have a way to count them while I'm at work, I may do this for one more day to be sure it is all trained up. Then the generator test -> Yamaha 2400.

Posted By: TexasChaps on 06/05/17 06:33pm

pianotuna wrote:

Hi jharrell,

Music to my ears!

Any idea of the wattage draw on your 15k btu unit?

Thanks.

LOL.. I can just hear those batteries crying...

that level of abuse will shorten their life considerably..

Posted By: pianotuna on 06/05/17 07:20pm Hi TexasChaps,

Actually I was able to run the roof air from the inverter before having the Microair installed. It seems to have made little difference except for there being two "blips" of the red fault light rather than just one longer one.

Demand with the Microair varied between 134 and 143 amps @ 12 volts.

TexasChaps wrote:

LOL.. I can just hear those batteries crying...

that level of abuse will shorten their life considerably..

Posted By: ewarnerusa on 06/05/17 07:53pm

ewarnerusa wrote:

...Then the generator test -> Yamaha 2400.

Generator test was a success! High altitude blazing hot temps will be the true test though.

Posted By: pianotuna on 06/05/17 08:18pm Hi,

Could you not run it before on the 2400? Any idea what the voltage was when running?

ewarnerusa wrote:

ewarnerusa wrote:

...Then the generator test -> Yamaha 2400.

Generator test was a success! High altitude blazing hot temps will be the true test though.

Posted By: ktmrfs on 06/06/17 09:46am

pianotuna wrote:

Hi,

Any chance of a test with the eco mode *on*?

I don't know about the dometic, but my honda 2000 but with the microair it will start my coleman MachIII old style high LRA unit no fuss with eco mode on. ramps up the rpm smoothly no hunting, no fuss.

Posted By: ewarnerusa on 06/06/17 09:59am

pianotuna wrote:

Hi,

Could you not run it before on the 2400? Any idea what the voltage was when running?

ewarnerusa wrote:

ewarnerusa wrote:

...Then the generator test -> Yamaha 2400.

Generator test was a success! High altitude blazing hot temps will be the true test though.

At home (~4400' elevation) I have had moderate success running it before the Micro Air but with a SUPCO SPP6 hard start capacitor. So last night's generator test wasn't too informative, although I was happy to have it work. Killawatt said 124V I believe with it running off gen? I know it read that much before I fired the air con up and I recall checking it again with it running and not being alarmed in any way. RPMs ramped up smoothly when compressor kicked in and there wasn't a bogging-down will-it-or-won't-it-trip-the-fault hesitation.

When I've tried running the air con during camping use, usually a lot higher elevation than home and of course blazing hot out, I have been disappointed enough with generator performance that I stopped trying or even bringing it along at all.

Posted By: pianotuna on 06/06/17 11:15am ty ktmrfs,

Have you noted voltage drop on starting in eco mode?

ktmrfs wrote:

I don't know about the dometic, but my honda 2000 but with the microair it will start my coleman MachIII old style high LRA unit no fuss with eco mode on. ramps up the rpm smoothly no hunting, no fuss.

Posted By: ktmrfs on 06/24/17 02:25pm

pianotuna wrote:

ty ktmrfs,

Have you noted voltage drop on starting in eco mode?

yes, I did a min and max hold on my RMS voltmeter. In eco mode no load voltage 126VRMS, starting load min voltage was 116VRMS, so about a 10VRMS drop, then running volts was about 123V. this was with the honda 2000 in eco mode.

Posted By: ktmrfs on 06/24/17 03:50pm another successful test. near sea level, but today the temps broke 100F, and with the trailer nice and toasty this afternoon, I decided to plug it into the generator and see how the AC and generator did. Left honda 2000 in eco mode, let it warm up a few minutes, turned on the AC, AC started, no fuss, no muss, easy peasy. Generator ramped up smoothly and kept on running. Still had some margin, turning off eco mode the generator rpm increased noticeably.

Next test will be at 3-4K ft later this summer.

Posted By: pianotuna on 06/24/17 05:09pm Ktmrfs,

Thanks for taking the time to post.

Posted By: marcsbigfoot20b27 on 06/24/17 05:47pm

ktmrfs wrote:

another successful test. near sea level, but today the temps broke 100F, and with the trailer nice and toasty this afternoon, I decided to plug it into the generator and see how the AC and generator did. Left honda 2000 in eco mode, let it warm up a few minutes, turned on the AC, AC started, no fuss, no muss, easy peasy. Generator ramped up smoothly and kept on running. Still had some margin, turning off eco mode the generator rpm increased noticeably.

Next test will be at 3-4K ft later this summer.

I tested mine at 1400 ft at 95 degrees and it worked....didnt try eco mode. At 120 degrees it did not work with the lowered power output and locked rotor amps of 59.....even with the help of the Microair.

Posted By: ktmrfs on 06/25/17 10:39am

marcsbigfoot20b27 wrote:

Next test will be at 3-4K ft later this summer.

Hey, at 120F I can't blame anything for NOT working. Wow, that's way to hot for me.

Posted By: ewarnerusa on 07/05/17 11:53am

pianotuna wrote:

Hi,

Could you not run it before on the 2400? Any idea what the voltage was when running?

ewarnerusa wrote:

ewarnerusa wrote:

...Then the generator test -> Yamaha 2400.

Generator test was a success! High altitude blazing hot temps will be the true test though.

It was 95F yesterday and I thought I'd try another generator test run while parked at home. It was 102 in the camper and the generator started the air con with no problem. Before the compressor kicked on, the Kill-A-Watt said 124-125V and once the compressor came on it dropped to 120-121V. Volt-amps were in the 1450 range at the beginning, about a half hour later it was up in the 1600's. Voltage stayed at 120-121V. I forced through a couple cycles and each time the generator did fine.

Posted By: Chris Bryant on 07/05/17 12:14pm

marcsbigfoot20b27 wrote:

A rule of thumb is the a/c will draw about 1 amp more for every 10 degrees above 95, and I can imagine it may have been over 120 up on the roof.

-- Chris Bryant

Posted By: marcsbigfoot20b27 on 07/05/17 12:26pm

Chris Bryant wrote:

marcsbigfoot20b27 wrote:

A rule of thumb is the a/c will draw about 1 amp more for every 10 degrees above 95, and I can imagine it may have been over 120 up on the roof.

Yeah that is the truth....parked in full AZ sun in 120 ambient it gets stupid hot. I just bought one of those cable splitter things so I can read the amps with a clamp on meter instead of having the shroud and covers off. I have all summer left to do hot testing..lol.

Posted By: pianotuna on 07/05/17 04:53pm My 13500 was drawing over 1900 watts today. Temperature inside was 25.4 c (76 f) and outside it was 33 C (91.4 f).

The 15 amp shore power supply was 115 volts unloaded and I was using load support plus a Sola Basic autoformer. Voltage in RV was 108.

I had originally "clamped" the shore power to a maximum of 12 amps. Then I got stupid and moved it up to 14 amps. The breaker tripped and I have no access to it.

Posted By: road-runner on 07/05/17 08:39pm A few of the previous posts highlight that just because a given generator can start a given air conditioner, it doesn't mean it's ok to run it for long. And when you measure the power draw, it needs to be in the conditions you'll be running the air conditioner in, and after the power consumption has peaked, which one post pointed out could be 30 minutes.

Posted By: marcsbigfoot20b27 on 07/08/17 05:32pm I just realized something......

With 115 degrees at 1400 ft at my house, the density altitude is around 5000+ ft.

I may change to the next smaller jet for my EU2000i and see if I can squeeze out a little more power since it is technically running rich.

The 4000-7000 jet should work better.

bullardmaying.blogspot.com

Source: https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/29275334/print/true.cfm

Micro Air Easy Start With 2000 Watt Inverter

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